To me, the only reasonable exception that might exist to totally unrestricted speech is paid speech. If the courts really wishes to foster a state of free speech, then it should recognize that doing so requires the regulation of contractually obligated speech. Advertising, paid endorsements, Public relations firms, these are all things that obviously must be regulated, perhaps out of existence.
And as an aside, deporting people (back to their home countries) over their ideology is appropriate. The administration was recently elected to do just that. Deportations are legal, and the US public voted for them. The mandate is clear.
Not without due process, but I'm not sure what you think that means. No one is putting you in prison, you're being sent home. Do you think that by saying heinous shit, you are de facto granted citizenship?
> No one is putting you in prison, you're being sent home.
We are breaking a valid grant of access, without recourse.
My take here is that you're basically in favor of recent attempts to try to revoke visas and deport students who are saying "heinous shit" (you know, heinous, terrible things like: "Maybe the people in Gaza are actually people" and "Maybe Israel should stop killing journalists and aide organization members trying to help those people" - absolute, utter batshit speech apparently. According to you)
But "being sent home" is a bit light. An alternative take might be "I paid 100k so far for this diploma, and you're sending me home the year before I graduate."
Or "I'm literally living with my (US citizens) family in student housing at this university, and you're deporting me now".
And... while I agree visa holders can and should probably have some clear restrictions and requirements...
I think your take is pretty fucking far away from "speech should be unrestricted".
Your stance is not coherent. This is an admin restricting speech of people they think are vulnerable, by imposing clear punishment to coerce silence. Why does that not irritate you if you think speech should be unrestricted?
Are you unable to comprehend how those are related?
Do you not care?
Are you convinced these people are saying things "heinous" enough that suddenly you don't actually want free speech at all?
Basically - help me understand how your reconcile those views internally, because they don't paint a clear picture as you've expressed them here.
I'm saying that "free speech" means they can say things without being intentionally targeted for removal by the government.
These people aren't illegal immigrants - we're talking about revoking the visas for people here legally under visa programs.
So go answer the question (or keep desperately refusing to...):
Why should a visa holder be targeted and removed for making use of their free speech? How does that reconcile in your head with "I'm all for free speech".
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> Do you think that saying things that I don't like should de facto grant you citizenship?
This is... gently put - A stupid fucking response. I'm saying that a visa holder shouldn't be removed or otherwise punished for making speech. I think speech shouldn't really impact their visa outside of some clear and sane limits (ex - if they advocate violently overthrowing the US government... sure, lets talk about that visa).
They are here legally with legal visa - why do you confidently proclaim that you are for free speech if you believe that their speech should result in revoked visas?
That's not free speech. That's curtailed speech. AKA - you are not pro free speech.
> I'm saying that a visa holder shouldn't be removed or otherwise punished for making speech.
You seem to think that being sent to your own country is a punishment. I do not. This is going to be a sticking point if you are trying to convince me of something.
You cannot deport citizens, and I believe that I am not arguing that you can, however, the process due to non-citizens is very minimal. You and your belongings are being returned to your country, where you will be free to do with them whatever you please. It's not incarceration, or a fine, we're just kicking you out, and we can basically do that at our discretion.
Incredible that someone might combine the American "free speech is absolutely everything" with "it's good to deport people for their speech" in two short paragraphs, but I guess that's where conservativism is at nowadays.
I don't think there's much "reconciliation" going on in the heads of a lot of folks who support modern day republicans.
As in - they don't bother to try to reconcile different thoughts and ideas into a coherent chain. There's no consideration for how the words said in this sentence might impact the words said just a sentence or two before.
It's just smushed together into canvas of "vaguely decent sounding gibberish". Each sentence by itself is somewhat coherent, but when you take the entire paragraph... it lacks internal consistency.
I'm not a conservative. I'm absolutely in favor of free speech, modulo paid speech, as I listed above.
Deportation does require some process, but you're not being charged with a crime, you're being returned to freedom in your own country. If a democratically elected government demonstrates that you are not a citizen, and judges that the country would be better off without you in it, and further gained its mandate from the position that it would deport you, I'd be hard pressed to find a legal reason why this policy should be prevented. The first amendment protects you from prosecution, not deportation. We'll see if the supreme court agrees.
Yet if a citizen of the country makes the same identical speech and has the same identical ideology, it’s now 100% acceptable and should carry no legal consequences? What is it about the specific combination of speech and citizenship, which suddenly creates a danger for society? What about speech which is done anonymously, is that more or less dangerous that the same speech made by a known citizen? Should all speech require proof of citizenship beforehand?
So .. where are the speech rules for visa holders written down?
The important thing in rule of law is that it should be possible to comply. If visa holders were told that not engaging in political speech or holding certain views in public was a condition of their visa, then it's somewhat defensible.
What are the speech laws that apply here?
Or are you arguing that visas are pure whimsy? That they're awarded based on whether elected officials like you or not?
> You're not being imprisoned, executed, or fined. You're being sent home.
Why do you think this matters? Further, why do you think this isn't a punishment (often of greater impact than a fine? Nothing like paying for 3/4 of a top tier ivy diploma only to be sent home a few semesters before graduating - nifty little 100k fine right there...)
These are clear punishments applied by the admin towards a group of people making specific speech they don't like.
You are ok with that.
Ipso facto - you are not pro free speech.
I... don't really know why you're bothering to argue that you are.
And as an aside, deporting people (back to their home countries) over their ideology is appropriate. The administration was recently elected to do just that. Deportations are legal, and the US public voted for them. The mandate is clear.