"And I hope we value and develop other skills, like independence, focus, persistence, deep thought and careful reflection, which might not be as natural for extroverts."
Amen. Extroverts ruined my K12 education, how about yours? Now they're busy doing the same to the political system, entertainment, etc.
And what're the introverts doing? Oh, they're off building the next Facebook/LinkedIn to facilitate the extroverts...
What do you expect? How can you have someone that doesn't like talking to crowds be a politician or someone who avoids cameras be in the entertainment business? I guess, then, that leaves the extroverts to fill the gaps...
I hate the idea of cliques (jocks, nerds, etc.) just as much as I hate the idea of baseless notions that extroverts are the slime balls while introverts are the silent heroes. If people hailed the qualities of introverts, then they would be in the position of extroverts, and since introverts presumably dislike being in such situations, they would cease honing the skills like "independence, focus, persistence..." they are admired for.
If the introverts are truly "building the next Facebook/LinkedIn," then their success is derived from the extroverts using it.
It might not be a pretty world, but at least it's balanced (to a decent degree).
What do you expect? How can you have someone that doesn't like talking to crowds be a politician or someone who avoids cameras be in the entertainment business? I guess, then, that leaves the extroverts to fill the gaps...
Many introverts are quite good at talking to crowds. Speaking as an lifelong introvert myself, crowds are easy. It's individuals that can be difficult.
"Introverted" and "shy" are not the same thing.
Many entertainers are introverts--the actor who vanishes back to his trailer the second the cameras stop rolling is almost a stereotype. Introverted politicians are less common, but they exist as well. Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter are both famously introverted.
The distinction between introvert and extrovert has little to do with willingness to appear in the public eye. It's about where you find your energy: The introvert is drained by dealing with people and recharges in private, while the extrovert finds social interaction invigorating and solitude draining.
So true. Giving OK presentations is a technical skill that can be acquired with a bit of training (and a sympathetic audience to bounce off for your unsuccessful shows). Most people who are brilliant public speakers are extroverts, but many extroverts are only passable or downright terrible at public speaking, because they never have acquired the skill, while an introvert can train themselves to be quite interesting and engaging.
These are unscientific observations on the basis of a bunch of academic conferences (which give you the opportunity of observing the same person in a public-speaking context and informally). YMMV.
Last year I left a job I had for 5 1/2 years where I had to do speeches and presentations right, left and centre. You get used to it---even "skilled" at it. People praise you for your presentation skills; sometimes they even ask for advice.
Being chummy with people afterwards didn't get one iota easier, though.
Maybe we need more introverted politicians... Seems like nowadays being a politician is more about kissing babies, and accepting bribes^Wdonations than about trying to do something meaningful with their time in office like:
- Make an attempt to understand the laws that they are passing and their implications
- Cut 'riders' out of bills
- Try not to make laws that only benefit lawyers (so ambiguous that there will be multiple precedent-setting cases before the legal grey area is gone).
> It might not be a pretty world, but at least it's
> balanced (to a decent degree).
How so? If we accept the idea that extroverts are in the CEO / politician / sports star / etc positions, then you have to accept that the extroverts are the ones the hold all of the power. If the introverts are 'building the next Facebook/LinkedIn,' that gives them relatively little power: 1) politicians can make your product illegal 2) there are relatively few success-stories that give founders enough money to be considered in a position of 'power' (how many failed Facebooks are there for every Facebook).
I'm not throwing in on either side of the 'this is reality vs this is fantasy' argument, but if we assume that it is reality, your idea that it's balanced doesn't seem to hold up.
I wonder what would be the introvert/extrovert ratio for politicians be in countries such as China? From what I've heard, more of their politicians there have an education as engineer or scientist, instead of laywer or MBA which is common in the west (or at least, USA).
I'm not sure how to take that... (as purely inquisitive, or as a subtle attack on my argument -- i.e. more introverts as politicians => China => Socialism / Communism => Game Over).
On the same token (introverts in Washingon == Communism), I could say that few con-men are introverts, thereby implying that an extrovert-heavy government would be full of con-men. The introvert-vs-extrovert argument certainly isn't a battle of good-vs-evil, though I don't think anyone here is saying that we should have a population of 100% introverts (or extroverts) either.
My take on that comment was that it was not a subtle attack at all -- it was merely an observation that it's not a logical necessity for the leaders of a large country to be extroverts.
Indeed, that was my reasoning. I'm simply curious. It didn't even come into me to think of it as an attack. Any anti-communism or anti-introvert bias he might have read in my message is completely his own. I'm an introvert myself and I don't regard either capitalism or communism as evil in itself.
I may have been overreading into your comment. I tried to make my comment seem like I wasn't just assuming the worst of you, but it looks like I failed at that. My initial read of your comment was that it was just curiosity, but for some reason a second reading made me realize the 'oh noes! communism!' angle too.
You bring up a very good point, but if we take the politician example, I view extroverted as engaging with the public and facilitating what the public needs.
Maybe what's wrong with the political system boils down to false promises and inability to effectively determine what the people want. That is an introverted quality (lack of proper social communication). The bad politicians who pass crappy laws are more a testament to the people who vote for them anyway.
And there's no reason to suggest CEO's are anything like public figures. In fact, I would argue a good many of them are introverts. If you view their respective companies as teams, then introverts shine just as well as extroverts do in team settings.
I think some of the issue is 'pleasing the public' vs 'giving the public what they need.' There are a lot of poor political choices that are made in order to put on a dog-and-pony-show for portions of the public that don't like to think too much (e.g. prosecuting sexting teenagers as child pornographers just so that they can claim to be 'tough on crime' or 'of strong morals' or 'pro-family').
> How can you have someone that doesn't like talking to crowds be a politician
Calvin "Silent Cal" Coolidge. (Possibly. He wasn't averse to press conferences, certainly, but he certainly cultivated the image of being a, in his words, "solemn ass" and was pretty universally known as a reticent man.)
> someone who avoids cameras be in the entertainment business
I'm a programmer and have always preferred a late-night hacking session or a deep intellectual late-night conversation with a likely-minded soul over going to pubs/house parties and doing keg stands, being obnoxiously loud and other misc. "bro-ey" antics.
But I think your thinking is too binary (but I can relate to that as well as I'm a geek at heart) - who says that extroverts can't be introspective or sensitive when you are being sensitive to them or that under the right circumstances, when somebody puts the move on you, your favorite music is playing at the bar or just feel-good atmosphere, an introvert flips into the life of the party. Not exclusive to the programming world, I feel that most people put unfamiliar cliques into bins and give themselves the self-label of "martyrdom" and "misunderstood geniuses" when we are all confused, insecure yuppies secretly nursing our individual quarter-life/mid-life crisis.
Like when you are debugging an application, would you expect if you don't change code or step-through to examine deeply your stack, the program would just magically work? But too often in the real world, programmers (including me) bang our heads in frustration of "us vs. them" and pine for better results without actually debugging our control flow.
But I can empathize with that too - too often as programmers, we are taught to grind through the code, not to give in no matter what; there's a masochist pleasure to drill down and resolve the bug no matter - "do not go gentle into that good night!" But I'm also a options trader and one of the hardest lesson that that field humbles you is "do not try to fight the market, do not take your emotions out on the market" - because the market is like an ocean, swimming against the current is difficult and strained whereas giving yourself to the vast tides is relaxing and liberating.
So like the financial markets, so is the "meat" market; and the trend there is that you have to go out, put yourself out there, flirt with strangers - because how else would someone who's interested in you be able to consummate that relationship if you are sitting at home. Do that and then tell me if you still have the same opinion about obnoxious/rowdy extroverts and non-programmers.
And as a programmer, I'm going to give you unsolicited advice about how to break into the extroverts scene. It's all about desensitization to let yourself go. First, you should sign up for a volunteering opportunity in your city; it's a good structured environment for people to meet up and people there by the nature are friendly. Once you get warmed up in volunteering, you should go daytime to a cafe by yourself and get a cup of coffee and try to flash smiles at strangers. People go to coffee shops by themselves all the time and it's expected you smile at people in public. Then you should go to a bar and try to have a beer by yourself. Do not worry about appearing awkward because actually people there probably have lots of respect for you for having the balls to come in by yourself and not rely on friends' crutches; and don't get surprised that extroverts will approach to talk, get your phone#, or more. Next, go to a night-club when there's a dance night that's playing your favorite genre music; again just dance the night away and don't feel self-unconscious, just concentrate on the music.
By then, you would have been approached by tons of interested strangers and/or developed confidence to approach potential cute romantic liaisons yourself that you'll know what to do. I can't believe typed out this rant but please disregard if this isn't particularly relevant to your situation but this is what happens I'm drunk at 4:48am on Sunday.
I moved to another country, I don't know anyone there, I do go out on my own and I do sit in cafés on my own from time to time - heck absolutely EVERYWHERE I go I am alone since 2 years.
I have not been approached by ANYONE not even a single time. I can hardly catch anyone's eyes to so much as get a chance to smile at them.
Your suggestions sound smart and useful but ultimately they probably only work for very attractive people and/or people who are not shy and already extrovert anyway - at least in my experience.
Seriously, I've countryhopped myself and once you have a decent grip of the language, the best way to get low-friction contact with the locals is to strike random conversations with old people. With few exceptions, they love it when anyone at all talks to them, have interesting stories to tell, and are much easier to approach than your random person-your-age on the street. Try it. Give yourself a quota of one conversation a day. Talk to that granny that lives two floors above you to start with. Keep it up.
It's a two-way street. When you're willing to approach other people, you're more likely to present noticeable-but-subconscious cues that you're an approachable person. If you're sulking in the corner, morose that no one will talk to you, then you probably don't look like someone others want to approach.
I try to do something similar to what noname does, but I also try to seize opportunities to talk to people. In a crowded coffee shop, it's inevitable that you'll overhear conversations, and people realize this. If the conversation isn't too personal, and you have an insight or something meaningful to add, try interjecting. I'm always apologetic when I do it, flashing smiles and trying to be as polite as possible. If I feel they were actually bothered by the interjection, I say my piece, apologize and leave it at that. But people often are receptive to the interjection, and I've met some good people that way - people that I now consider friends.
Hmm. In the spirit of even more unsolicited advice, I would say that it's also your attitude. Sorry to get all philosophical but there are certain things that you can control (say your emotions/thoughts/what you can do next) vs. things you can't control (other people's emotions/background).
Being social is about being independent of other people's positive and negative feedback about you. Suppose a stranger looks down or frowns when you try to tell them a joke or to get them to open up on a bus or something, your thinking could go either, "well, this sucks; people think I'm nerdy, unattractive, etc." or you could think, "well, it's alright; maybe she's just having a bad day or just being shy and really appreciated me; well, there's always next time!"
Kind of like debugging, "first you don't succeed, dust yourself up and try again!" (well, I guess it's more like re-compile and try again, doesn't have the same ring to it though).
Amen. Extroverts ruined my K12 education, how about yours? Now they're busy doing the same to the political system, entertainment, etc.
And what're the introverts doing? Oh, they're off building the next Facebook/LinkedIn to facilitate the extroverts...